Fire Engines Photos

Would appear to be S01E4 according to the call sign card in the cab window as its the second retained appliance at S01 ? I presume?

Added by Doug on 18 July 2012.

Hi yeh Doug just spotted that it should say S01E4.

Editor: I've changed it from S01e3 into S01E4

Added by Steve on 18 July 2012.

Thats right gents the station is S01 Johnstone 2x pumps with a 10 plate Scania Rp W/T and a 53 Rp plate Rtd. This Aerial was originally at T01 Cowcaddens (Glasgow) when new in 2003.

Added by Grant Melville on 18 July 2012.

Why is the ALP retained at a wholetime station?

Added by David Jones on 18 July 2012.

If like Merseyside it is retained to save money. Only one of the ALP's is now whole time in Liverpool city center and responds to the whole brigade. the others are called as and when needed.

Added by Dave Price on 19 July 2012.

David, I think it's just the way Aerials are going. Over the passed twenty to thirty years Brigades' Aerial fleets have been severely slashed. Look at the way some Brigades have decided to revisit the horrors of the past by cross-breeding aerials with Rescue Pumps again! And we all know how that particular experiment is progressing. Some Aerials are now jump-crewed, or placed with a retained crew. Some have been phased out completely. Slowly they are becoming more-and-more of a special-request-only appliance. Some no longer respond on blues and twos unless absolutely necessary.

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 19 July 2012.

S01 Johnstone, this wholetime/retained station never had an aerial in the past. It's always been 2 pumps then an Road Rescue Unit from 89-91 before Rp's and a control unit was based there from 89 -95. Strathclyde have also put on the run at station LO2 Oban wholetime/retained ex station TO2 Maryhill's P reg Volvo/FL10 ALP crewd the same way.

Up here in Tayside we are putting on the run the 3rd CARP 12 plate Scania P400/Angloco late August/September at station 2 MacAlpine rd Dundee replacing 1 pump and also a P reg VolvoFL10 ALP.

Added by Grant Melville on 19 July 2012.

Personally, I think there should be more aerials in service. What happens when there will inevitably be a fire in a high rise office with many people trapped? You'll need more than one aerial to deal help with that... And as for combined appliances, they have their uses but they can never replace a dedicated vehicle. And does anyone know if Northumberland still have no aerial appliance?

Added by David Jones on 19 July 2012.

Yes no aerial up here in Northumberland. Call in Tyne And Wear as and when required.

Added by Paul Staniland on 19 July 2012.

Aerials are mandatory structure fire first response in many Japanese, US and European urban areas. This UK "solution" is beginning to look a little Third World compared to other countries. The idea that a million population city should rely on one aerial is very worrysome. Chicago, with 3 million people, has 46 front line aerials, all fully staffed 24/7 by a five person crew.

Added by Rob Johnson on 19 July 2012.

Comment removed at request of Commentor

I started to repy to this thread that was going to appear to criticise the retained service - this was not what I intended ! - the RDS (retained duty system) system guys do a fantastic job in areas where there is not the call for a wholetime appliance/crew ! - however, an ariel appliance is a specialist appliance and, in my opinion cannot be operated by a retained operator/crew - they simply cannot fit in the required amount of training (along with their normal training) to be competent or confident in an ariel appliances use ! they are simply being used to save on a wholetime crews wage costs ( a wholetime station of four watches would need twelve extra personnel to allow an ariel to be permanently crewed by two riders !) so all I can say is when, and not if , there is a problem caused by an ariel being retained duty system crewed whatever it is - I hope its the 'powers that be' that are brought to account !

Added by Rick Loudon on 19 July 2012.

I can vouch that Northumberland is still without any arial appliances. The thing is that - apart from that point - the days of aerial rescues are extremely minimal now, and the times when any aerial was used for anything other than water tower purposes are very few and far between. In fact, in recent years, I can't honestly recall an instance when one was used for rescue purposes from a fire situation. This is due to an extremely pronounced drop in firecalls due to fire-awareness, and the fact that so many buildings, eg: offices, flats, etc, are now so tall that the once "magic" 100' figure of a TL (virtually matched by 32m HPs) is no longer magic at all.

Added by Ian Moore on 20 July 2012.

Warwickshire have two carps one at leamington and one at Nuneaton. Nuneaton use to have a hp but was withdrawn and cover came from the hp at Coventry (west mids). The hp was at leamington was replaced with a carp and the other week there was a fire in the town and the hp from Coventry was there. So really don't see apart from cutting cost why they got rid leamington was a perfect two app and a hp station with prime mover.

Added by Tom on 20 July 2012.

Dave no chance of more aerials they did a siervey on Merseyside to see how many times a aerial had been used for rescues it was found very few.Plus with modern buildings they say people should be able to self rescue.

Added by Dave Price on 20 July 2012.

I am far from being convinced that UK structures are all that different than those found in most other European cities - and how many of our responses are to "modern buildings", as distinct from older ones? I would guess very few.
As yardsticks, let's look at some other European metro areas. Berlin has 1 30 meter ladder tower for each 1.5 rescue pumps, Amsterdam has 1 ladder for each 2.5 pumps, Paris and Prague are similar and Brussels actually has 1.0 for 1.0.
These are not only used for fire rescues, but for water tower applications, roof and upper floor ventilation and for bringing down stretcher cases to support EMS. Several French and German services also use them extensively for the incident commander to get a bird's eye view of the fireground. In Japan and North America, the four or five person crew also "fills out" structure first response manpower assignments, and conducts search and rescue even if the ladder is not employed.
My friends in the Chicago Fire Deoartment tell me that they use the aerials very often, even when they could use ground ladders, because they are much safer and more flexible when it comes to accessing different windows, floors, or balconies.
A much-favored SOP here is to break out windows or cut the roof from the exterior, to vent the fire and make it easier for the inside hose team, and the aerial gets the job done more safely and quickly than ground ladders.

Added by Rob Johnson on 20 July 2012.

Comment removed at request of Commentor

hi andy hasnt south wales had a new alp delivered in the past 2 years ? im sure that would surely be wholetime crewed

Added by Simon Roberts on 20 July 2012.

Comment removed at request of Commentor

Of course, height rescues are thankfully rare, but they do happen. And in a time where health and safety says to use aerials for more roles, why are their numbers dropping? At least I can safely say the three in Hampshire's fleet are safe for a while yet.

Added by David Jones on 20 July 2012.

AFAIK Avon Fire and Rescue Services just got two turntable ladders (27 m) and are said to get another on (32 m) by end of the year.

Added by Martin Siegel on 20 July 2012.

Mr Loudon I am afraid you do the retained crew of this appliance a severe diservice , to suggest that only the truly elite wholetime crew have the ability to use this appliance safely is simply nonesense and to be honest a tad naughty , it is statements like this that do harm to wholetime /retained relationships , these dedicated men have the training and the hours required to use this appliance in a safe and efficient manner, they also \have the training required to use any other equipment required to keep their core competancy up to date , and to suggest that it is an accident waiting to happen and that only wholetime are good enough to do this task is ludicrous , you do these firefighters a disservice and I feel you should redress these remarks

Added by John Johnstone on 20 July 2012.

ah Avon I used to live not far from temple 09 they're always busy mostly turning out 2 pumps and a 03 plate TL. martin do you know the allocations of these TLs

Added by Simon Roberts on 21 July 2012.

John

You appear to have either misread or misunderstood my comments - I started by saying the retained do a fantastic job did I not ? I did NOT say wholetime crews ONLY should operate ariel appliances - I don't care who operates them as long as they have had sufficient training to make them both competant and confident ! - it is my honest opinion that a retained firefighter cannot in two or three hours training per week gain sufficient 'top up ' experience to use these appliances - (neither can a wholetime firefighter if he or she passes the required course then sits on their backsides and never gets out to try different things with the appliance !) I've seen pretty poor wholetime operators as well ! - we were a TL station and drilled/trained frequently with the TL -but I would also get it out in the yard myself (as did other operators on my watch) and run it up and down the side of the tower, site it in the yard to get optimum reach to various pitches (without having to resite it) - if ever we got an HP as a spare appliance - the same thing - practise practise practise - I was'nt perfect but certainly got better the more I used it ! You suggested I said 'an accident waiting to happen' no I did'nt - they are your words not mine - I said 'if a problem occurs' - I meant a delayed turnout due to being retained crewed - to save money - fire will not wait and someone trapped may decide to jump - what do you say to them ? hang on, we're saving money but it'll be here soon ????

I know for a fact that my former brigade has gone solely retained on two of its four ariels (despite when this was tried years ago at one of the stations - it was dropped - due to the crews being unable to maintain competency !) now, they don't even record the training would you believe ?? so, as I said WHEN a 'problem' occurs either through the appliance being delayed by being retained crewed or an accident happens (as you suggested) then the H&S police will descend rapidly. My suggested target was the 'corporate management' and councillors who are in charge of brigades finances who are being forced to save money by cutting crews left right and centre !
So to sum up ! I don't think it was nonsense, or naughty or ludicrous - And I would hope that most would agree with me ? - consider the remarks 'redressed'!

For the record I was a TL operator for over 25 years - Merryweather Hydraulic and Metz DL 30 and a Simon SS220 operator / cage instructor for 20 years or so.
I also have, (and still hope to have ) many friends in the retained service in various brigades up and down the country

Note from the editor: And any further comment about wholetime/retained firefighters by private e-mail please.

Added by Rick Loudon on 21 July 2012.

Simon,

sorry I don't but I have seen your question has been answered by Bristol Bob in the other thread.

Added by Martin Siegel on 21 July 2012.

Stockholm has a minimum dedicated aerial on every station as well as two pumps or Smoke Car and Diving Car to use their terminology.

Added by Andy Middleton on 22 July 2012.

Martin, 32m TL is to go to Temple and 27m TLs for Bath and Weston. WU12EXF has been at Bath training crews, hope this helps. Wrexham (NWFRS) Scania ALP was involved in a rescue at a nursing home fire during its last three weeks in service.

Added by Gary Simpson on 22 July 2012.

Part of the reason behind the re-introduction of the two ALPs in Strathclyde after having phased them out in favour of ARPs is that they discovered that ARPs aren't as versatile, they don't allow you to reach below the horizontal as you can do with ALPs and TLs. This became apparant at a few incidents and the decision was taken to re-introduce them but crewed by retained and mainly "on request" rather than on PDAs. The decision to place one in Oban was due to the remote location and time taken to get the next closest aerial to Oban.

Added by Scots_firey on 11 October 2012.

Please add your comments about this picture using the form below.

Comments

Your Name

Your email address - this will be shown on the page and will allow the system to notify you of further comments added to this picture.