Fire Engines Photos

Great shot Royce. Looks like she's carrying another ladder on the escape which seems to have been relatively common at this time. I read on another of your postings that she was scrapped just 6 years after this photo at only 10 years old. Can you remember why she had such a short life?

Added by Chris Wood on 26 October 2010.

Chris - At present we can not answer your question. We are looking into it, but anyone with the answer please get in touch.

Added by Royce Treacher on 28 October 2010.

Thanks for that Royce. The appliance may not have lasted long but I bet the escape did better - it looks fantastic.

Added by Chris Wood on 30 October 2010.

Chris - Yes the Bayley escape was new in 1952 and, I believe, was only condemned in 1970!

Added by Royce Treacher on 30 October 2010.

Royce,

would I be right in assuming the Bayley escape was placed on BEE 999L ? which was new in 1972 (about the time that MEE 247 was replaced) I certainly remember a varnished Bayley on BEE 999L - I joined Humberside in 1976 (which contradicts your date of 1970 for condemning the ladder) and from memory the ladder on BEE was taken out of service a year or two later and replaced with a steel Merryweather escape - which did little for the handling of the appliance as there was a considerable weight difference in favour of a Bayley escape - the crews commented that it was like removing the power steering !
As an aside BEE 999L has been through one period of preservation with a former Grimsby fireman and is now in the care of a friend of mine who has aqquired a Bayley escape for her !

Added by Rick Loudon on 31 October 2010.

Thanks for your helpful comments Rick. So the Bayley could have lasted until as late as 1977 or 8, which would make it 25 years old. The weight issue puzzles me as I have been told that the steel escape was bought because the wooden one was too heavy?? Also I am surprised that as late as 1977/8 Humberside were still ordering wheeled escapes rather than 45' Laycon ladders.

Added by Royce Treacher on 01 November 2010.

Royce

The wooden Bayley 'balanced the appliance' perfectly as BEE was designed and built to carry it - it failed its standard test and was replaced (as far as I'm aware) with a steel escape taken from an appliance Humberside already had and that had recently come 'off the run' they certainly were'nt buying escapes new as late as 1977/8 but definatly had up to half a dozen 'on the run' that late - the brigade have always seemed to have a policy of keeping the major appliance on its original station for a considerable time - as the Bayley escape would suddenly not be fit for use anymore they would most likely have gone for the cheapest and quickest fix - put another eascape on it rather than replace the appliance !

Added by Rick Loudon on 01 November 2010.

Can anyone help with an enquiry regarding this appliance. I believe that this appliance was sold out of service to the Cape Hill Brewery in Smethwick were it aquired a hydraulic platform for use as a maintenance vehicle. The records that I have show that no F24 were delivered as a PHP. It also would have been reregistered to KJV 664. The Fire Brigade Society visited this station during April 1980. Can anyone help identify if these two appliances are in fact the same. Better still, is anyone able to post a photograph of it?

Added by Mike Burnett on 01 November 2010.

I always thought Merryweather 50ft escapes were lighter, Paul Pearson replaced the wooden escape on his AEC for that reason. Maybe the heavier ladder moved the centre of gravity back and put more weight on the front end ie the Bailey made the front end light?

Added by Neal Glover on 01 November 2010.

Yes Neal

Thats exactly right the Bayley weighs approx three quarters of a ton and effectivly weighed the rear of the appliance down - replace that with a lighter escape and the rear of the appliance 'goes light' and the front heavy making it heavier on the steering !

Added by Rick Loudon on 01 November 2010.

Hello Mike, my 1st reaction to your enquiry was 'surely not' as I have seen KJV 664 and there is no resemblance to this machine apart from the front bodywork which has the standard F24 appearance. However, I looked at my notes for KJV 664 and found that Fire Cover magazine number 140 (page 5) states that it was indeed a former Grimsby appliance which was converted for use at Cape Hill Brewery, Smethwick. I don't have the magazine to hand but I haven't recorded anything about a change in registration. Another reference I have says that this machine may have been a cancelled order for a northern brigade and was then supplied new to the brewery.
Either way, it should not be thought of as a traditional PHP as the access platform was the sort that you might see on the back of a Land Rover used by BT or the electricity board.
I cannot post a photo but anyone with a back catalogue of 'Heritage Commercials' magazines will find a photo of it (with platform) on page 68 of the February 2003 edition.
The platform has long since been removed and a wooden escape was being carried when I saw the machine at the Derby Fire Show in 2006. I can provide photos from this time but I have to get a friend to scan them for me.
I think that's enough from me, let's hope someone has a definitive answer to this very interesting question.

Added by Chris Wood on 02 November 2010.

I have a picture or two of the CAPE HILL BREWERY Pump Escape KJV 664 at Derby Fire Show in 2007 I will put them on for you.

Added by Dave Price on 02 November 2010.

Chris,
Many thanks for you response to my question. It certainly has puzzled me for a number of years. It may well be a totally different appliance to the Grimsby F24. I have been curious as to why it was registered in Grimsby of all places. I hope someone will be able to come up with a definative answer in the near future

Added by Mike Burnett on 02 November 2010.

In reply to Ricks comment, I was lead to believe from a Grimsby fireman that the escape came from a Bedford/HCB Angus appliance that came from either Immingham or Scunthorpe that was replaced by an 1975 Dennis. It would help with my records if anyone could confirm this please?

Added by Mike Burnett on 02 November 2010.

Mike

It is most likely it came from Scunthorpes Pump Escape 86 DFU (Bedford TK - HCB Angus?)- it was replaced in 1975 by a Dennis F108 JRH 105 N . - Imminghams PE LFU 940 F (Bedford TK - HCB Angus) was also replaced by a Dennis F108 JRH 104 N - it then found itself as the retained appliance at Scunthorpe until the early 1980's eventually running without its escape ladder as it failed its standard test a few months earlier

Added by Rick Loudon on 03 November 2010.

Looking at Dave Prices pics I do not think KJV664 and MEE 247 are the same applince the lockers/hosereel are different (but could have been changed) but the cab roof extends futher behind the rear door on MEE than it does on KJV unless the rear door has been moved backwards it is surely a different vehicle ? the mystery deepens - comments anyone ?

Added by Rick Loudon on 03 November 2010.

Out of interest when was the later steel escape on BEE999L withdrawn and when did Humberside take their final escape out of use.

Added by George A'court on 03 November 2010.

Yes Mike, Ex Cleethorpes (Lindsey FB) Bedford TK PE came off the run and was replaced by Humbersides JRH 104N Dennis and its merryweather escape went onto ex Grimsby's BEE 999L

Added by Dave Redgrift on 03 November 2010.

Brian.

What was the registration of the Cleethorpes Pump Escape please ?



Added by Rick Loudon on 04 November 2010.

Dave thanks for the commment, but it was definitely not the Cleethorpes Escape. This was still on the run until 1983 when it was replaced by RAT 322R from Peakes Lane. This having been displaced by Dennis SS HKH 945Y. I also have a photograph of two friends looking at the pump controls of BEE 999L taken in 1978 which clearly shows it having a steel escape. Hope this helps. If you contact me I have put together a known list of appliances allocated to Peakes Lane, Cromwell Road and Cleethorpes that I will send to you.

Added by Mike Burnett on 04 November 2010.

Mike, Rick - KJV 664 is clearly not a modified version of the MEE 247 unless the chassis was lengthened. The Grimsby machine had a wheelbase of 12'3" whereas KJV is only 10'9". As, thanks to Dave's photo we now have side-on views of both, this can be verified with a ruler! The F24 was supplied by Dennis in both forms according to my chassis list.

Added by Royce Treacher on 04 November 2010.

Brian, Cleethorpes PE was registered MFW 986F and partnered MFU 881F whan Cleethorpes was a two pump WT/Rt station. In reply to Georges question, BEE 999L was taken out of service in 1986 when it was replaced by C551 CRH. This was I believe the last escape within Humberside Fire Brigade

Added by Mike Burnett on 04 November 2010.

Lindsey FB's Bedford TK HCB PE was MFW 986F, The sister appliance Bedford TK Pump went on to Cromwell Road when the station was built and served alongside Dennis F108 JRH 104N.

Added by Dave Redgrift on 04 November 2010.

Dave

I know we're going a 'little off topic' here but from memory JRH 104 N was new to Immingham , and when Cromwell road was built it was, for the first few years a one pump station - I did'nt think JRH 104 N was stationed there ?

Added by Rick Loudon on 04 November 2010.

You're quite Rick. Cromwell Road was a pump station for a number of years, running JRH 103N. I have a photograph of this. The second pump arrived when Cleethorpes was downgraded from WT/Rt to Rt. Initially the PE was transferred to Cromwell Road but after less than a month, it was replaced by the Cleethorpes WrT, MFU 881F. This inturn was replaced by the 1979 Dennis RS, KRH 585V. The Bedford ending its career in the reserve fleet. Hope this helps.

Added by Mike Burnett on 04 November 2010.

Thank you for the information. It seems like Humberside was one of the last brigades to have an escape on the run.

Added by George A'court on 05 November 2010.

The question of whether MEE 247 and KJV 664 were the same machine has been expertly resolved at picture 25817. It seems that both 'Fire Cover' references I mentioned in my earlier comment were correct I'm pleased to say.
All we need now is to find out why this machine had a relatively short life and then we can move on to the next mystery!!

Added by Chris Wood on 09 November 2010.

Just found this thread! Wonderfully evocative photographs by Royce and others...
I think the answer to the above is that MEE 247 didn't have the relatively short life that has been suggested. I distinctly remember it still in service in 1975(alongside CEE 999C and BEE 999L)although it was sometimes substituted by one of the ex-Lindsey FB Bedfords.

Added by Craig Thompson on 23 September 2011.

Can you remember the appliance line up at Peakes Lane between 1973 and 1977. This is the last piece of information I need to complete the appliance allocation from 1953 to present date.

Added by Mike Burnett on 23 September 2011.

KJV 664 and MEE 247 were most certainly NOT the same appliance. KJV was to have been Grimsby's, and this accounts for it having been registered there. It's chassis number was 101F24A, from which it will be realised that it was the first one. For reasons unbeknown, it was not accepted by Grimsby, and before it went to Cape Hill Brewery it served with Dennis as a Demonstrator. MEE 247 came along, and was chassis number 104F24D2.

Added by Ian Moore on 23 September 2011.

Mike
I'm afraid my memory's rather hazy after such time, particularly regarding exact dates, but I'll have a go...
Dennis F49 BEE999L and F34 CEE999C were the first two pumps in the line up during this time. As I mentioned, 3rd pump was MEE247, latterly alternating with a Bedford which then replaced it altogether around 1975. I have a blurred picture of Bedford TK MFU880F on the run in Grimsby a little later than this so I'm assuming this was the vehicle, although I've read elsewhere on this site that it was at Scunthorpe at some point during the same period.
Dennis F17 TL EJV955 was next, but may have lost its no. 4 spot to Dennis SS220 HP ORH40P when it arrived in, I think, 1976. The fifth bay initially had a Commer RT which was then replaced by a Landrover marked "road accident tender". I don't think it was round long! Incidentally, the Commer reappeared at a later date as a control support unit, I believe. PHP JJV999F always sat in bay 6. I don't recall seeing it after the HP arrived.
Sorry this is all a bit vague but I hope it helps a little.

Added by Craig Thompson on 24 September 2011.

Craig

The Landrover you refer to as a 'Road Accident Tender' was red and white and its reg was KWF 287E - it was stationed for about a year at Scunthorpe but we already had the Bedford SB ET BBE 157B so it was transferred to Grimsby for RTA cover (no rescue pumps in those days - unless you count air tools and a blackhawk set !) it was marked up incidentally as 'Road Accident Vehicle'

Added by Rick Loudon on 25 September 2011.

Many thanks Craig. The line up is what I had worked out, you have confirmed my thougts. The Bedford is really interesting. I wonder if this was one of the two N registered appliances purchased in 1975. This must have then been replaced by RAT 322R, the Dodge/HCB WrL. I just wonder if the Bedford you mentioned was 88 DFU which was divisional spare for many years. MFU 880F I understand was based at Scunthorpe for its entire working life. The PHP went over the water to Beverley and is pictured elsewhere on this site attending a fire in Hull. Thanks Craig

Added by Mike Burnett on 25 September 2011.

Mike, the two N reg Bedfords were HAT 708/9 N and were most certainly at Epworth and Crowle - I believe they were a Lindsey County Fire Brigade order but recieved Hull registraions because of reorganisation (can't remember which was where) from my joining in January 1976 until disposal so I don't think they were ever in C division - MFU 880 F was a spare at Scunthorpe in 1976 - I did a lot of training on it before going to training school Scunthorpe had 86 DFU Bedford TK PE prior to JRH 105N arriving - 88 DFU was a water tender I think !

Added by Rick Loudon on 25 September 2011.

Thank you Rick, your information has been really useful. I now know that 88 DFU was on the run until 1975 when it became C divisional spare. I just wonder if this was a stop gap between MEE 247 being replaced by RAT 322R. With the appliances ordered between 1975-1977, being WrLs this would have put a 135 ladder on all wholetime stations regardless of whether there was an escape there.

Added by Mike Burnett on 26 September 2011.

No problems Mike - on reflection I've got the registrations slightly wrong on the two N reg TK's Epworth was HAT 795N and Crowle HAT 794 N - out of interest Winterton and Kirton Lindsey had EBE 571/2 L also Bedford TK's which must have been two of the last delivered to Lindsey County the Kirton in Lindsey appliance only had about 6000 miles on the clock when disposed of !

Added by Rick Loudon on 26 September 2011.

One reason some brigades preferred the steel Merryweather was that it saved enough weight for the appliance to be upgraded to a WTE with either a 300 or even 400 gallon tank.



Added by Rob Johnson on 31 July 2017.

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