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Dennis F43 pump escape Wallasey JHF 707J
taken about 1975 as Wallasey, a yellow brigade, was absorbed into Merseyside FB, who repainted this appliances red. This appliance appears on the pages of the Merseyside Fire Museum but I am not sure if they own it?
taken about 1975 as Wallasey, a yellow brigade, was absorbed into Merseyside FB, who repainted this appliances red. This appliance appears on the pages of the Merseyside Fire Museum but I am not sure if they own it?
This appliance is a Dennis F.44 Pump Escape,JHF 707J Wallasey specification complete with Merryweather all steel Escape in ICI Coventry Yellow. the appliance was fitted with the unique slam-shut or flap lockers, it could also operate as a pump.
When Wallasey was merged into the newly formed Merseyside fire Brigade it was converted to take a 135/464 all alloy ladder the appliance was repainted to traditional fire engine red and several other minor modifications were carried out. It was thought to have been withdrawn from service sometime in 1988, with the current location unknown (May-be scrapped) There was also a sister appliance a Dennis F.43 Pump/Escape.
index HHF 107H this was an identical specification appliance but on the F.43 Chassis and could also operate as a pump. To complete the line up they had a Dennis F.28 1960 vintage(FHF 60) which underwent refurbishment by the Wallasey Brigade this was completely repainted to Coventry Yellow and other minor modifications added to up date this appliance to the specification of the other two leading pumps. To complete the line-up
the brigade had a 1971 Dennis F.48 Emergency Tender,ordered by the Brigade in Yellow but during the build revised to traditional fire engine red and delivered in this livery. Recent reports are a Dennis WrL laying derelict at Bray International Film Studios this was thought to have been the appliance at the end of "Time Bandits" with Sean Connery, HHF 107H not the J reg. However this won't tie in with the previous caption on this column and Pete Edwards Company as the engine in question was thought to have been owned by the studios.
Added by BOB CARVER on 26 March 2010.
When Wallasey was merged into the newly formed Merseyside fire Brigade it was converted to take a 135/464 all alloy ladder the appliance was repainted to traditional fire engine red and several other minor modifications were carried out. It was thought to have been withdrawn from service sometime in 1988, with the current location unknown (May-be scrapped) There was also a sister appliance a Dennis F.43 Pump/Escape.
index HHF 107H this was an identical specification appliance but on the F.43 Chassis and could also operate as a pump. To complete the line up they had a Dennis F.28 1960 vintage(FHF 60) which underwent refurbishment by the Wallasey Brigade this was completely repainted to Coventry Yellow and other minor modifications added to up date this appliance to the specification of the other two leading pumps. To complete the line-up
the brigade had a 1971 Dennis F.48 Emergency Tender,ordered by the Brigade in Yellow but during the build revised to traditional fire engine red and delivered in this livery. Recent reports are a Dennis WrL laying derelict at Bray International Film Studios this was thought to have been the appliance at the end of "Time Bandits" with Sean Connery, HHF 107H not the J reg. However this won't tie in with the previous caption on this column and Pete Edwards Company as the engine in question was thought to have been owned by the studios.
Added by BOB CARVER on 26 March 2010.
Hi Bob
the et was preserved for a while but was stored in a bus yard which was cleared by liverpool city council who it is believed scrapped it. The previous owner of the et, said there were traces of yellow paint on the et under the red!
do you have any more information on the derelict pump at the studios? i would be very interested
Added by Barry on 26 March 2010.
the et was preserved for a while but was stored in a bus yard which was cleared by liverpool city council who it is believed scrapped it. The previous owner of the et, said there were traces of yellow paint on the et under the red!
do you have any more information on the derelict pump at the studios? i would be very interested
Added by Barry on 26 March 2010.
Barry, matters are in hand as we speak, There now seems doubt that it is Ex- Wallasey, keep you informed.
Added by BOB CARVER on 29 March 2010.
Added by BOB CARVER on 29 March 2010.
wasnt one re-painted yellow and based at one end of the mersey tunnel when it was being built?
Added by Sean Griffiths on 02 May 2010.
Added by Sean Griffiths on 02 May 2010.
Re: JHF 707J. This was an F45 major pump with the Dennis no.3 900gpm rear mounted pump and a 400 gallon water tank. (Like all of Wallasey's pumps it did not carry a featherweight pump so could not be called a water tender) The pump was fully rear mounted, making it difficult to operate if a wheeled escape was carried so this was only ever carried if HHF 107H (see below)was off the run.
It's immediate predecessor was HHF 107H which was an F44 pump escape also carrying 400 gallons of water but with the Dennis no.2 pump delivering only 600 gpm. She came fitted with a Merryweather all steel escape ladder which was a revelation to we poor souls who had grown up with wooden escapes. It was so well balanced that it could easily be manoeuvred around the yard by one man instead of the four or five needed for a wooden escape. To prevent the mounted escape interfering with pump operating the pump had two operating positions, one each side in the rear lockers. Presumably it is this appliance whose escape wheels are visible in the picture.
I drove 107H to several incidents before I transferred to Cheshire county Fire Brigade in December 1969. Incidentally, she was never "based at" the Wallasey tunnel although she did attend a fire at the workings in June 1970. Later on, when the whole area became part of Merseyside, I drove 107H again when it was the spare appliance for Western Division. By this time it was in a sorry state. Merseyside had replaced some of the original Trinity Pump delivery valves with standard screw-down ones obviously taken from the scrap heap and to fit them in they'd had to remove the rear locker doors. It was also looking thoroughly uncared for - inevitable I suppose when an appliance no longer has a permanent home.
Both of these appliances had the Rolls-Royce B81 petrol engine (234 BHP) driving the Allison 6 speed automatic gearbox via a torque converter. This combination introduced fire appliances to the world of motor car performance. I know from personal experience that the average family car from the late 60's could not hope to catch them from a standing start.
HHF 107H replaced a 1950 Dennis F12 (BHF 556) with rear mounted 900 gpm pump, separate hose reel pump and 100gallon water tank. JHF 707J replaced a 1952 Dennis F8 (CHF 606) with a 500gpm pump
and 200 gallon water tank.
Wallasey's 1960 Dennis F24 (FHF 60) continued in service as "pump 2" after the two new appliances were acquired. As already reported, she was repainted in "City of Coventry Fire Brigade Yellow" (this really was what it said on the tin) by brigade workshops to match the two new machines. She had the Dennis no.2 pump and a 100 gallon water tank.
Sadly I know nothing of the fate of any of these appliances as I transferred to Northamptonshire in 1977 and had no further contact with Merseyside.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 12 October 2010.
It's immediate predecessor was HHF 107H which was an F44 pump escape also carrying 400 gallons of water but with the Dennis no.2 pump delivering only 600 gpm. She came fitted with a Merryweather all steel escape ladder which was a revelation to we poor souls who had grown up with wooden escapes. It was so well balanced that it could easily be manoeuvred around the yard by one man instead of the four or five needed for a wooden escape. To prevent the mounted escape interfering with pump operating the pump had two operating positions, one each side in the rear lockers. Presumably it is this appliance whose escape wheels are visible in the picture.
I drove 107H to several incidents before I transferred to Cheshire county Fire Brigade in December 1969. Incidentally, she was never "based at" the Wallasey tunnel although she did attend a fire at the workings in June 1970. Later on, when the whole area became part of Merseyside, I drove 107H again when it was the spare appliance for Western Division. By this time it was in a sorry state. Merseyside had replaced some of the original Trinity Pump delivery valves with standard screw-down ones obviously taken from the scrap heap and to fit them in they'd had to remove the rear locker doors. It was also looking thoroughly uncared for - inevitable I suppose when an appliance no longer has a permanent home.
Both of these appliances had the Rolls-Royce B81 petrol engine (234 BHP) driving the Allison 6 speed automatic gearbox via a torque converter. This combination introduced fire appliances to the world of motor car performance. I know from personal experience that the average family car from the late 60's could not hope to catch them from a standing start.
HHF 107H replaced a 1950 Dennis F12 (BHF 556) with rear mounted 900 gpm pump, separate hose reel pump and 100gallon water tank. JHF 707J replaced a 1952 Dennis F8 (CHF 606) with a 500gpm pump
and 200 gallon water tank.
Wallasey's 1960 Dennis F24 (FHF 60) continued in service as "pump 2" after the two new appliances were acquired. As already reported, she was repainted in "City of Coventry Fire Brigade Yellow" (this really was what it said on the tin) by brigade workshops to match the two new machines. She had the Dennis no.2 pump and a 100 gallon water tank.
Sadly I know nothing of the fate of any of these appliances as I transferred to Northamptonshire in 1977 and had no further contact with Merseyside.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 12 October 2010.
May I jump in on this one please ?
JHF 707J was most certainly an F43 - chassis number 126F43B - though the same brigade's HHF 107H was an F44.
Added by Ian Moore on 12 October 2010.
JHF 707J was most certainly an F43 - chassis number 126F43B - though the same brigade's HHF 107H was an F44.
Added by Ian Moore on 12 October 2010.
I know the colour of the ET has been brought up before. When it was on reserve we had it at my station Eccleston were I was a Sub.O and rode it regular it was Red but must have been painted Yellow then re-painted as the red wore away on the wheel arch and I could see the Yellow paint beneath.
Added by Dave Price on 13 October 2010.
Added by Dave Price on 13 October 2010.
Ron, Don't you think they looked really striking in yellow or are you a traditionalist best stick with the red, I have gone to great lengths to trace these pumps and it would appear they have all been scrapped on the Mersey Fire Website there is a photo of Dennis F43B outside a breakers with a sale sign on it, taken many years ago I have been in touch with them it would appear it has been scrapped what a shame! many thanks for your run down on the specification of these handsome appliances.
Added by BOB CARVER on 13 October 2010.
Added by BOB CARVER on 13 October 2010.
dave,
speaking to the person who bought the et from the brigade, he said there where traces of yellow under the brigade badge when it was removed! he seemed to think that it had been ordered in yellow but repainted red before it left the factory.
barry
Added by Barry on 13 October 2010.
speaking to the person who bought the et from the brigade, he said there where traces of yellow under the brigade badge when it was removed! he seemed to think that it had been ordered in yellow but repainted red before it left the factory.
barry
Added by Barry on 13 October 2010.
Bob,
There is no doubt that yellow was the better colour, ICI did a lot of research at the request of Coventry FB to come up with the most reflective colour possible that would still be effective under yellow street lights. Fluorescent colours don't work under these lights and retro-reflective panels weren't yet available. (Even if they had been, hardly anybody drove with their headlights on in built-up areas. Doing so was regarded as extremely anti-social - seems strange now doesn't it?)
With regard to the ET, although I had left Wallasey by the time she was delivered I was stationed at CCFB Bebington on the Wirral and I occasionally met my former colleagues from Wallasey if we were both "standing by" at Birkenhead's Whetstone Lane headquarters. The common belief among the Wallasey lads was that the Home Office had insisted on the colour change just as the appliance was ready for delivery and she was held up at the factory for the new paint job at considerable expense. Certainly she was red the first time I saw her in Wallasey's appliance room which was only a day or two after delivery. Hope this may shed a bit more light.
Ron
Added by Ron Kingdon on 13 October 2010.
There is no doubt that yellow was the better colour, ICI did a lot of research at the request of Coventry FB to come up with the most reflective colour possible that would still be effective under yellow street lights. Fluorescent colours don't work under these lights and retro-reflective panels weren't yet available. (Even if they had been, hardly anybody drove with their headlights on in built-up areas. Doing so was regarded as extremely anti-social - seems strange now doesn't it?)
With regard to the ET, although I had left Wallasey by the time she was delivered I was stationed at CCFB Bebington on the Wirral and I occasionally met my former colleagues from Wallasey if we were both "standing by" at Birkenhead's Whetstone Lane headquarters. The common belief among the Wallasey lads was that the Home Office had insisted on the colour change just as the appliance was ready for delivery and she was held up at the factory for the new paint job at considerable expense. Certainly she was red the first time I saw her in Wallasey's appliance room which was only a day or two after delivery. Hope this may shed a bit more light.
Ron
Added by Ron Kingdon on 13 October 2010.
I can certainly confirm that FHF 60 was re-finished in yellow under Wallasey - I have pictures of it in that livery within my collection.
Added by Ian Moore on 14 October 2010.
Added by Ian Moore on 14 October 2010.
Ron, I did a lot of communication with various persons whom insist that the "Wallasey" Dennis E.T was yellow operationally. My associate at "Dennis" Woodbridge Works days said he did recall the E.T in question, bit of confusion as Borough of Newport Monmouthshire, also ordered one at the same period in yellow He remarked that it was completed for pre-delivery checks in ICI Fire Brigade Yellow undergoing acceptance trials, when
a memo of confirmation or directive was received from the Home Office Inspectorate that the recommendation as a result of trials undertaken with the Home Office, Fire Appliances should be retained (kept) in red as this colour was the colour that the public most associated with "Fire" and the fire service, the report went on to say much confusion has resulted with the experimentation of yellow as a livery as the colour is being to commercially used by the Private Sector which destroyed the advantages that this new colour would have made (although anyone would not miss Fire Brigade Yellow as this was not a conventional yellow it was nearly day-glow in its properties dispite being a conventional applied paint. The situation was complicated further when
Northampton did a isolated appliances in Bergans Yellow (used by British Telecom) at the time.
On this recommendation "Wallaseys" Dennis E.T became the centre of an argument when who? was going to foot the bill for a repaint before even the appliance hit the road! and I do believe "Wallaseys" Chief Fire Officer declined but reached an agreement with "Dennis" or a compromise, in later weeks it was repainted re-badged while undergoing acceptance trials as Wallasey would not accept it until the matter was resolved. I am waiting for the build/instructions for this appliance in which all these amendments will be listed. Anyone disputing this will be welcome to Photocopies of the build and specification if they would like to contact me when these become available It will tell all!
matter closed. Incidently what would be brillant is someone to have photographed this appliance at Dennis when yellow! I will point out also that the "Newport Dennis F.49 E.T was in Fire Brigade Yellow and embossed aluminium (stucco) this was operational in yellow to the end of its life in various roles with "Gwent" it was sold off via auction and I have been informed (once again) that its now looking in a sad state laying in a field.
Over to you on this website so what did become of "Newports" Borough appliances what about the AEC/Merryweather with dual Ajax Ladders! is this a first in a Brigade.
Added by BOB CARVER on 14 October 2010.
a memo of confirmation or directive was received from the Home Office Inspectorate that the recommendation as a result of trials undertaken with the Home Office, Fire Appliances should be retained (kept) in red as this colour was the colour that the public most associated with "Fire" and the fire service, the report went on to say much confusion has resulted with the experimentation of yellow as a livery as the colour is being to commercially used by the Private Sector which destroyed the advantages that this new colour would have made (although anyone would not miss Fire Brigade Yellow as this was not a conventional yellow it was nearly day-glow in its properties dispite being a conventional applied paint. The situation was complicated further when
Northampton did a isolated appliances in Bergans Yellow (used by British Telecom) at the time.
On this recommendation "Wallaseys" Dennis E.T became the centre of an argument when who? was going to foot the bill for a repaint before even the appliance hit the road! and I do believe "Wallaseys" Chief Fire Officer declined but reached an agreement with "Dennis" or a compromise, in later weeks it was repainted re-badged while undergoing acceptance trials as Wallasey would not accept it until the matter was resolved. I am waiting for the build/instructions for this appliance in which all these amendments will be listed. Anyone disputing this will be welcome to Photocopies of the build and specification if they would like to contact me when these become available It will tell all!
matter closed. Incidently what would be brillant is someone to have photographed this appliance at Dennis when yellow! I will point out also that the "Newport Dennis F.49 E.T was in Fire Brigade Yellow and embossed aluminium (stucco) this was operational in yellow to the end of its life in various roles with "Gwent" it was sold off via auction and I have been informed (once again) that its now looking in a sad state laying in a field.
Over to you on this website so what did become of "Newports" Borough appliances what about the AEC/Merryweather with dual Ajax Ladders! is this a first in a Brigade.
Added by BOB CARVER on 14 October 2010.
Bob
Coincidentally, when I transferred to Northants in 1977 the two Dennis appliances which had been Northampton Borough's pride and joy were standard red but had conspicuous yellow bits where the top coat was wearing thin. This caused much mirth among the County lads (who had absorbed the Borough brigade in 1974) because the colour was "hydrant yellow" and it was rumoured that the Borough hadn't been able to afford the proper paint!
I am pleased to see that you have nailed the Wallasey ET issue once and for all
Added by Ron kingdon on 14 October 2010.
Coincidentally, when I transferred to Northants in 1977 the two Dennis appliances which had been Northampton Borough's pride and joy were standard red but had conspicuous yellow bits where the top coat was wearing thin. This caused much mirth among the County lads (who had absorbed the Borough brigade in 1974) because the colour was "hydrant yellow" and it was rumoured that the Borough hadn't been able to afford the proper paint!
I am pleased to see that you have nailed the Wallasey ET issue once and for all
Added by Ron kingdon on 14 October 2010.
There are pictures of LHF75K on flickr showing it in The Corner Pin Pub Car Park in Stubbins near Ramsbottom Greater Manchester taken 24th December 2010 by Andy Daley
Added by Dan jones on 10 August 2014.
Added by Dan jones on 10 August 2014.
A very colourful story. Personally I think the yellow experiment was quite mad, but a few other countries did it too. And there are still a few yellow trucks operaing in the US, where almost every colour is to be found on fire trucks if you look in enough places!
The real mystery to my mind is that the Wallasey Brigade did not have a turntable ladder in its lineup.
Added by Rob Johnson on 18 August 2014.
The real mystery to my mind is that the Wallasey Brigade did not have a turntable ladder in its lineup.
Added by Rob Johnson on 18 August 2014.
Hi Rob
Wallasey certainly did have a TL. It was one of the first Merryweather/AEC hydraulics, delivered in, I think, 1960. There are several photos of it on various FB related sites on the internet - registration number was HHF84. She stayed on the run in Merseyside for a few years and then they took the ladders off and fitted them onto a new chassis B925KWM which they sent off to Africa somewhere. HHF84 is still going the rounds of transport shows in the guise of a builders lorry with a 2 man cab.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 29 August 2014.
Wallasey certainly did have a TL. It was one of the first Merryweather/AEC hydraulics, delivered in, I think, 1960. There are several photos of it on various FB related sites on the internet - registration number was HHF84. She stayed on the run in Merseyside for a few years and then they took the ladders off and fitted them onto a new chassis B925KWM which they sent off to Africa somewhere. HHF84 is still going the rounds of transport shows in the guise of a builders lorry with a 2 man cab.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 29 August 2014.
Yes it did...
AEC Turntable Ladder HHF84
Info from fireflash delta64 website
Added by Danny jones on 29 August 2014.
AEC Turntable Ladder HHF84
Info from fireflash delta64 website
Added by Danny jones on 29 August 2014.
I spent many happy hours at the top of HHF84's ladder, most notably at the New brighton Tower fire in 1969. Further to the yellow "experiment" you must bear in mind that until 1968/69 there were no decent blue flashing lights nor reflective panels available and nobody drove with their headlights on in built up areas (see my comment above). Coventry yellow made a fire appliance stick out like a sore thumb and gave a vast improvement in safety before all our present technology was invented.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 04 September 2014.
Added by Ron Kingdon on 04 September 2014.
Ron:
Did anyone actually keep records of fire appliance RTA's before, during and after the "yellow period"?
Some US authorities did track the impact of emergency vehicle colors on their accident rates, and found no correlations between colors and safety. It seems that the colors that other drivers are used to seeing on emergency vehicles are actually the safest, which is what the Home office also discovered.
Added by Rob Johnson on 03 October 2018.
Did anyone actually keep records of fire appliance RTA's before, during and after the "yellow period"?
Some US authorities did track the impact of emergency vehicle colors on their accident rates, and found no correlations between colors and safety. It seems that the colors that other drivers are used to seeing on emergency vehicles are actually the safest, which is what the Home office also discovered.
Added by Rob Johnson on 03 October 2018.
Dennis
Barry
Added by Barry Harding on 04 January 2010.