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Fire Engines Photos

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ARP Strathclyde Scania front
Fire Engine Photos
No: 1458   Contributor: Archie McKinnon   Year: 2006   Manufacturer: Scania   Country: United Kingdom
ARP Strathclyde Scania front

Aerial Rescue Pump SF06 GCV 2006 Scania P310/Vema 282 ARP/John Dennis
Station Clydebank.
See also picture #1457 and picture #1459
Picture added on 18 October 2006
add commentComments:
nice motor

Added by Fire Cadet David Kelly on 24 April 2007.
one of the best looking yet

Added by Eric H on 26 April 2007.
any idea what they are like to drive and operate?. Rumoured that L&B are looking to purchase these.

Added by Stevie Murray on 26 April 2007.
Just finished a weeks Driver/Operators course at BTC, this is an excellent bit of kit. It is 22 Tonnes so is slow to take off but once its going it's quick, takes longer to stop due to the weight. Drives just like a rescue pump just have to remember that its tall (3.7m) longer (9.5) and has rear wheel steering!!!

Added by Owen on 21 May 2007.
Owen, I hope you were not the driver who rolled the first one yesterday! 40 years ago Tyne and Wear Fire Brigade started fitting SIMON aerial booms to their ERF pumps. After the first one was rolled at a roundabout in North Shields the idea was quietly dropped. I wonder if these ARP's will go the same way?

Added by Barry on 22 May 2007.
Humberside Fire and Rescue Service are also going to be taking delivery of a CARP based on a Mercedes Econic chassis

Added by Nathan Smith on 23 May 2007.
Just to clarify the coment from Barry about the machines that Tyne & Wear used to have. I know it's not what he means, but the impression could be gained that they fitted snorkel booms to existing ERF pumps. This was not the case, and all three ERFs were supplied new as Pump Hydraulic Platforms. They were not new to T&W, as the first (that which rolled) had been new to Tynemouth County Borough, and the other two were new to Newcastle & Gateshead. They were all incorporated into Tyne & Wear on the 1974 mergers.

Added by Ian Moore on 23 May 2007.
What is the operating height of the platform?

Added by Martin on 23 May 2007.
Overall height is 28.5 metres. I have been told that there is another 19 of these ARP's on order for Strathclyde alone.

Added by Owen on 23 May 2007.
Moving sideways a little, can anyone refresh my memory about the demise of Simon and there 'snorkel' manufacture with dates? Were their designs used by Magirus? Are Simon products still supported in the UK?

Added by Barry. on 24 May 2007.
Can anyone confirm that it was a CARP involved in the accident mentioned above, my Fire Service have been looking at these in the last few weeks.

Added by Clive on 26 May 2007.
Central Scotland fire brigade have just bought one of these on a volvo body saw it at truckfest Scotland yesterday 4/8/07

Added by ERIC on 05 August 2007.
Eric, Central's appliances are completely different as they are based on as you say a volvo chassis but they have magirus bodywork and magirus multistar booms which are only a two stage. and the only have 4 wheels and are roughly the same size as a normal pump unlike these.

Added by LFC Andy McVean on 06 August 2007.
absolutly great looking truck

Added by Nick Eaton on 29 October 2007.
Centrals are they, over a year late? does anyone know that the hold up is.

Added by Big Tam on 02 November 2007.
Any pictures of the central pump?

Added by Buzz on 13 November 2007.
see picture #3188 for Central's ARP

Added by Petros Williams on 16 November 2007.
Hi what is happining with your ARP

Added by Steve Bonner on 24 January 2008.
My thoughts are also with johns family and friends, perhaps we should be looking at appliance design, i personally feel they are getting to big and unwieldy, why dont we get dennis any more ? i know a friend of mine from west midlands and they swear buy them, fast stable easy to get in and out roomy and reliable, must be too expensive for our scottish purses .

Added by Big Al on 26 January 2008.
I heard it was heading back to VEMA and JDC to get re-Chassed

Added by Steve Bonner on 27 January 2008.
That's the problem with Scottish brigades - budget constraints

Added by Stevie Murray on 27 January 2008.
Im pretty certain that Volvo and Scania, especially, are much more expensive than Dennis.

Added by Buzz on 28 January 2008.
I fear we are heading towards more tragic events if the fire service does not stop building larger slower more poorly handling appliances.I think its time they started listening to the more experienced ff and not the bean counters.

Added by Big Tam on 28 January 2008.
Listen guys your missing the point, this is purely a money saying exercise for the long term for Strathclyde. Most stations that have received these new ARP have lost 2 members per watch (that's 8 in total (think of the money there saving)) since the introduction of these appliancies, in reality these things will pay for themselves within 2 years. The minimum crewing for a multi-pump station with one of these ARP is 6 & 5 but most of the time we run with 6 & 4 and i can soon see it dropping to 5 & 4. I drive/operate one of these and i think the biggest problem is that they have been rushed into service to soon hence all the problems!!

Added by Owen on 28 January 2008.
I agree with big tam. it's time the brigades actually listened to the guys on the ground so to speak instead of being constrained by pen-pushers who have no experience of fire fighting.
Yet again, it will take a tragic event to change their minds.
question begs asking aswell, what will happen to retained crews when it comes for the time these machines to be handed down ( if they will be that is ). many retained stations will not be able to accommodate these ugly machines.

Added by Stevie Murray on 28 January 2008.
I am not flying the flag for dennis, merely speaking from experience, they are way faster, handle better, easier to get in and out and reliable, and they last longer, (merseyside are rebodying theres) they are about 12 grand more expensive than scania, i was told this from the man that buys them for a certain frs and although he was wearing a scania jacket i believe him, i just dont think they are trendy enough or pecieved to be old fashioned, i dont know, anyway appliances are getting to big and that is a fact, its time design, size, ease of ingress and egress, handling, and not cost were taken into account, and no more converted lorries !!!

Added by Big Al on 28 January 2008.
I think a big reason for services going for Scania is that it has a 17 tonne gross weight as opposed to Dennis's 13 tonne. The amount of equipment we are now having to carry is actually ruling out Dennis. Mind you, having had a Dennis RS in the past and now having a Scania I can say I would not want to go back. My service have now ordered 2 of the Carps which will be with us in about 2 years time.

Added by Clive on 29 January 2008.
Fair point big Al. Dennis are more specialist and perhaps the design is more suited to fire engines and bin lorries than the volvo and scania's. British company too?

Added by Buzz on 29 January 2008.
I was surprised to hear that the dennis was only 13 tonnes so i looked it up, the have 2 models, one is 14.5 tonnes and is suited to a r/p and one is 12.5 tonnes and suited more for the lighter end that used to be the rs or retained service pump as it was known some 25 years ago, yes the scania is heavier and thats my point, they dont have to be so heavy with carefull design and stowage it really isn, t rocket science, i know the gear carried as i am a serving firefighter of some 24 years and ride on a scania at the moment and no i am not dewy eyed, i just think common sense should prevail for all concerned, ps have a try on a sabre, you would never go back if you didnt have to !!

Added by Big Al on 29 January 2008.
I think Cive should perhaps compare like with like. If he compared the RS with a Scania of the same vintage then I am sure the RS would have won. So perhaps it is now whether the Sabre XL is a match for the Scania. We shouldn't also forget that the Sabre HD is a 17 ton chassis as used by the Dublin Dennis Magirus TL.

Added by Barry on 29 January 2008.
Well said Stevie, i bet the brigade still will not listen, but until someone dies as a result, these machines will keep getting bought to safe money, but what price do you put on a life/lives?

Added by John Johnstone on 20 February 2008.
Stevie and Big Al are on to something here and all you have to do is see the appliances from years ago to see the point in all its clarity.
its not that fire's are bigger or more complicated than the 60's is it? as the fire engines had the same fires to fight as they do now.
You see the cruxt of it is this, the market is more competitive now and manufacturers have to offer a more saleable product and although its not a practical machine it reflects all that they want, compactish all purpose arial appliance to be flexible in its design and use.
lorry chassis like the one shown are cheaper due to it being a standard chassis for lugging loads about but is it safe as a fire engine?
evidently not, but who suffers?
look back 40 yrs, a bespoke vehicle chassis manufactured to do a specialist job
not like the HGVs of today
the ALP at oxford and Chertsey, ask them what they think of them both volvo the answer is "crap" 380bhp its slow too big to navigate many of the streets in town centers, awful lock, auto gearbox boils on idle.
its sad to say it but its the way things are going and wont change so buckle up and corner slowly!

Added by Jason on 20 February 2008.
Great looking appliance. it's a shame that it's unstable and dangerous.

Added by M. Callagos on 21 February 2008.
Stevie just a quick question was the arp that rolled fitted with airbags and are any strathclyde appliances fitted with them.

Added by Big Tam on 21 February 2008.
These machines are probably more suite to the USA, not the UK with its small villages, country/winding roads and tight/narrow streets. You wont see the big chief riding in 1 of these! Its an absolute disgrace and somebody should let their MSP/MP know about it.

Added by Buzz on 21 February 2008.
The only chassis really suitable for a carp is the Mercedes Econic. It's a purpose built refuse/urban delivery vehicle chassis with very low centre of gravity. However, Scania will always be cheaper, they aim to flood the fire market just as they did with the bus and coach markets by offering crazy deals that cannot be ignored. These include 5 chassis for the cost of 4 from a competitor. Cash strapped brigades cannot afford to ignore this, and so buy vehicles that are too wide and totally unsuitable for the job they are expected to do!

Added by Graham Pritchett on 21 February 2008.
But the merc econic alp based at York fire station is off the run more times than on.

the best thing would be scrap these heaps of crap and have a pumping appliance and tl / alp appliances as separate machines.

not one manufacturer can build a chassis capable of being able to handle the amount of stress, load bearing factor that these machines place on the chassis, it's all down to common sense, pure and simple.

Added by John Johnstone on 21 February 2008.
i dont know why we have this penchant for big is best, yes the merc is low but its long an wide and was designed as a bin lorry with different axle loadings and i have spoke to a friend in yfrs and its not reliable probably for the reasons above, time we went public me thinks

Added by Big Al on 22 February 2008.
Just out of intrerest, i notice that this machine is a 310hp machine, whilst the merc econic at North Yorks is 280hp, but will weigh in the region of about 6-7 tons less than the Scania above. No matter what the engune bhp output, it's the torque that matters, the ammount of engine pulling power, the greater the size of the engine in litres, the more torque it will have, thus the acceleration will be more responsive. Merc engines for some reason, seem to be lazy and need a bootfull of revs to get them moving, and are not that good on the hills, especially as the econic is not the most aerodyanmic appliance.
In terms of chassis, i don't think that there is any one chassis that would be suitable to this type of load bearing, due to the high centre of gravity, already proven by these vehicles falling over at slow speed.
I thihnk we are wanting to be more like the americans, with their larger appliances and combined appliances, But the uk can't handle appliances of this size. Makes me wonder what sort of deals you get when buying unknown, untrusted technology, unfit for the purpose of fire fighting.i could rant on, but might end up geting kicked off the site.....

Added by John Johnstone on 22 February 2008.
Sorry! just me again, in terms of attendance times for appliances, do these attend as a pump or a arp, just a thought, if it attends as an arp, the attendance time is longer, thus if no other appliance is sent to a job, it would fail to make the attendance time as required by the brigades, just a thought.
Anyone throw anymore light on this legal wise......

Added by John Johnstone on 22 February 2008.
attendance times went out the window with "modernisation", they are a joke, we, ll be there sometime today missus, keep it going till we get there!!!!

Added by Big Al on 22 February 2008.
At the end of the day, it's all about cost. To develop a purpose built chassis from scratch would cost a manufacturer upwards of £20 million in development costs and testing. Even if every brigade in the UK bought this chassis, the time taken to recover these costs would rule out interest from any major manufacturer. That's why Dennis have not updated or expanded their range in recent years.

Added by Graham Pritchett on 22 February 2008.
there is mention above of putting CARPs on the Mercedes Econic chassis. Humberside and South Yorkshire have these - Hilton platforms bodied by TVAC. I am not clear if they have entered service yet but they are certainly built. They formed a single joint order

Added by Peter Williams on 20 March 2008.
Just by putting on the Merc chassis will not solve the problem.

When will the brigades realise the basic laws of physics? tall vehicle top heavy = unstability and poor handling, the fact that we haven't heard of a merc rolling over yet is because they aren't any on the run, and if they are as crap as the econic alp at York, then god help us... mind you, if its off the run all the time, it can't fall over!

Added by John Johnstone on 20 March 2008.
The Econic is a dustcart, the end

Added by Big Al on 20 March 2008.
Big Al, 100 % right, if only others would have your sense and listen to logic.

Added by John Johnstone on 20 March 2008.
i have heard scania are the tesco of the truck market when it comes to selling to fire services in the uk, buy two get one free !!

Added by Jock on 04 April 2008.
all the evidence i would imagine is available under the freedom of information act, it is unlikely a serving firefighter would drop himself in it by telling tales, but believe me these carps are big trouble

Added by Big Al on 06 April 2008.
Yes these are good looking machines, but do look top heavy, surely scania/jdc/vema etc have worked together on the safety design of these appliances, ..? in Bristol Avon Fire and Rescue are due to put there first CARP on the run sometime this year i believe, on a MAN chassis, possibly a big machine, time will tell if they are any better...Any machines similar in design to these CARP, s/CPP, s/ARP.s abroad, if so whats there safety record.....?....They all still look to big for normal use though.............

Added by Nick Miller on 30 May 2008.
I hear that central fire brigades arp volvo is still off the road from someone I know at work is this true.

Added by ERIC HADDOW on 31 May 2008.
Eric, not strictly true, it has had some problems, but both are supposed to be now in use for crew training, you may of heard that it had broken and went back to workshops, but I believe it is now back.

Added by Rob Shildon on 31 May 2008.
Link to website featuring an accident, apparently involving one of the above appliances.

Added by Pete Ellis on 06 June 2008.
Lothian & Borders have their CARP at Mac Road doing familiarisation training.

Added by Stevie Murray on 06 June 2008.
For those of us, "across The Pond", puzzling out this discussion - CARP is Combined Aerial Rescue Pump.
This must be similar to our "Quint", for "Quintuple" - pump, hose, water tank, ground ladders and aerial ladder on the one truck.
It is popular with City Hall budgets, as you combine an Engine and a Ladder into one machine, thereby saving on the Ladder crew. There are some factors in Operational Use however. eg Where just the Ladder Truck responded to a Medical Call, leaving the Pumper clear; now the whole show gets tied up on the Medical Call.
Appreciate the discussions.
Pat Rivers-Bowerman
Long Reach Volunteer Fire Dept
New Brunswick, Canada

Added by Pat_R-B on 09 June 2008.
Yes the discussions are of use but unfortunately not of any fruitition, these appliances are dangerous, have manning implications and may not serve the public as best as dedicated appliances, time we went public, we may already have suffered injuries and worse because appliances are too big and unwieldy for te tasks they are asked to do, they are top heavy and possibbly unstable, no tilt test can replicate speed, even some wt/l are too big and may have caused injuries or worse, a serious look at design needs to be undertaken, asap

Added by Big Al on 09 June 2008.
I am looking at the picture, and see tandem rear axles - for the rear-wheel steering, do both sets of wheels turn?
If only the rear-most set turn, there must be some awful scrubbing on the next set of tires....

Added by Pat_R-B on 09 June 2008.
Has anyone got any more information about the 'simonator' that has gone on the run in the west midlands? It is like a CARP but has a snozzle type remotely controlled boom with no cage.

Added by Michael P on 10 June 2008.
I think that unfortunately it is only a matter of time before there is a tragedy with one of these new style appliances they look to top heavy and there must be a handling and braking issues with these things, if anyone who has driven them or has any thoughts on any of the above both centrals or strathclyde s please write in.

Added by Tam on 25 June 2008.
Perhaps the key area that needs looking at is the dynamics of the vehicle in a turn at speed. I believe the rear wheel steer will have a tendency to kick the thing over? Putting the rear steer wheels before the 4 tyre load axle would be an improvement. However the selling feature, that these things will go into tight places like rubbish trucks do, will diminish? It's a bit of a 'Comet 1' scenario perhaps, the basic design is c...p. I believe London has the same problem with there new tankers, they fall over as well. Guess what both designs have in common?

Added by A Kiwi on 25 June 2008.
This ARP the MK2 has not got rear steer but the MK3s have

Added by Steve Bonner on 25 June 2008.
should have shown a photo of one on its side, it will happen sooner or later anyway

Added by Big Al on 28 June 2008.
Avon's CARP was due for deliver in June and it has still not arrived. I heard a rumour it was due to vema not having mounted the 282 ARP booms on a MAN chassis and has this month arrived at JDC for bodywork.

Added by Lewis, Bristol on 21 July 2008.
The West Mids 'simonitor' type appliance having talked to someone 'in the know'is a dedicated water tower, it has two monitors at the head of the booms both independently controlled from ground level with the aid of cameras. the thought is, its too dangerous to put firefighters over a fire at height hence the design of this dedicated vehicle, and that HP's/ TL's should be rescue only appliances

Added by Rick Loudon on 21 July 2008.
now that the dust has settled with these arps what are the feelings of the strathclyde firefighters towards them have things improved with time or are just getting worse.

Added by Tam on 27 August 2008.
Did anyone see 'Top Trumps' on Channel 5 last Monday night? It featured a Strathclyde ARP (this one I think) which was hailed as a brilliant new development in the field of firefighting! Also featured was a Bristol Airport Cobra 2 - nice to see some TV coverage of modern UK appliances.

Added by Adam Floyd on 04 October 2008.
Hi Adam, i assume you are not a serving firefighter and if you are ?? this is not a modern uk appliance, it is a rehash of a 40 year old idea that didnt work then and unfortunately isnt working now, nor is it a uk appliance i dont see any part of it originating in the uk apart from the cost saving and dangerous idea and perhaps the paint, time to look past the pretty cab and get down to reality !

Added by Big Al on 05 October 2008.
Top trumps featured several different ones a brand new one and a few 06's

Added by Lewis on 05 October 2008.
In response to Big Al, although I'm not and have never been a serving firefighter and I'm too young to remember them first hand, I am well aware of the ARP's 1970s ancestors. It's difficult to express irony in written text but I quoted what was said as I found it very ironic given that this idea had been tried before and didn't work then!

Added by Adam Floyd on 06 October 2008.
If any line managers from any fire and rescue service would care to read the comments on this appliance and i use the term subjectivly and those of the central regions volvo they really should think again, they are too big, they are too complicated, they dont handle, they are too slow, if its at an rtc assuming it gets there on time what happens if an earial is needed on the same fireground ? what happens if a pump is required at the same time ? there would be appliances running all over the place and they will be delayed no question!!, remember the fire service is based on the what if scenario, and here is the other side, all appliances are handed down to retained stations as they get older, these will never fit into retained pump bays some scania pump ladders dont as it is (ask tayside they are having big problems)so we now have to keep these bemoths on whole time stations till they are dead and the life span will be well short of the appliances that we have because of there complexity and no doubt lack of spares as they get older, we are in the sh~t big time, will somebody listen !!!

Added by Big Al on 07 October 2008.
There is a story on the BBC Soctland news site about the latest on the Central CARP appliances.

Added by Bryan Sweeney on 04 December 2008.
Guys read the headlines on it looks like central Scotland is sewing gb fire as the carps are un operable after 2 years in service and have not done any frontline service yet

Added by Calvin Fox on 04 December 2008.
Well Calvin thats no suprise, the company will win as the smallprint will cover everything, the taxpayer, yet again, pays for local authority incompetence. Time and time again we read of these overcomplicated wonder machines that, to put it bluntly, are not fit for purpose.

Added by John Stott on 05 December 2008.
Avons one has been complete and is on a Scania chassis not MAN

Added by Lewis on 10 January 2009.
Spoken with the drivers of these appliances at several glasgow stations and they all hate them. Compliants are. Top heavy, slow, unstable and parkheads was off the run for 140 days last year, good idea gone bad !!!!!

Added by ALAN YOUNG on 14 January 2009.
Avon had to buy a Scania, as the MAN chassied version gives an overall height of 4 metres compared to 3.75 metres on a Scania. Very few fire stations have appliance bay doors taller tham 3.8/3.9 metres!

Added by Graham Pritchett on 14 January 2009.
Can beat that clydebanks ARP this one was Off the run for 7 months

Added by Steve Bonner on 14 January 2009.
Well Avon Fire and Rescue have apparently just had there CARP delivered, (not seen it yet) a Scania/jdc/vema with polybilt bodywork, not a MAN as i stated before, going on info from AFR services own website, it shows it still inbuild on a MAN chassis...?...there is a picture, the only one i am aware of at this time on the polybilt web page....another one is on order for 18 months time..Apart from a re-chassied HP from 1980, and several TL, s, one off the road for some time now due to problems i believe with the original ladders from the 70, s, as the MAN chassis is sat in the workshop yard.this CARP will be a possible semi replacement for the AFR services only ALP a scania from 1988/89, taken OOS some time ago, ..So it will be interesting to see how AFR will get on with there ARP.....?...............

Added by Nick MIller. on 18 January 2009.
Avons ARP is on the polibuilt website under pictures

Added by Steve Bonner on 18 January 2009.
the spelling is polybilteurope if you want to find the gallery

Added by Peter Williams on 18 January 2009.
just been on the polybuilt site i went though the john dennis site and clicked on the polybilt banner the scania ( thou not a fan of ) looks ok even thou its only one pic if any avon people out there can send a pic in it would be nice

Added by Calvin Fox on 18 January 2009.
It has yet to be seen in Avom i know off people who have visited the workshops several times over the last week but haven't seen it. By the way the TL which had broken booms has had the removed and it at the workshops as just a chassis.

Added by Lewis on 19 January 2009.
It was apparently with Scania Avonmouth 19/1/09

Added by Bob on 20 January 2009.
Tvac have gone into admin as from Dec 2008, Humberside have the one carp, not on the run due to axle overloading issues, South yorks have 4, also not on the run due to the same problem and have lost in the region of 2.1 million pound, who says the credit crunch wasn't biting, if brigades have money to waste on these someone must be laughing big time !

South Yorks are seeking legal advice, but giving TVAC gone bust, i don't hold much hope out do you ?

Added by John Johnstone on 05 March 2009.
John, TVAC have gone bust as you say, - however Humbersides CARP is back in county with alloy wheels ! - to reduce the overloading issue but, its still overweight !!! apparently the PPC - (councillors) visited Grimsby where it is destined to be at recently so the brigade 'hid it' at another station for the duration of the visit I hold out even less hope than you !!!

Added by Rick Loudon on 06 March 2009.
Avons CARP is at Patchway,training,like it or not,its impressive.

Added by Bob on 16 March 2009.
Bob, did you manage to get any pictures of it. I have been trying since its been delivered and it has always been else where.

Added by Lewis on 17 March 2009.
Avon ARP picture now on the site,i made a mess of
adding contributors name though.

Added by Bob on 18 March 2009.
cheshire fire service are getting a CARP based on scania 96 chasiss and it 23 tonnes hopefully deliverd to us soon

Added by Jake Caswell on 12 June 2009.
I heard it was 'on hold' Jake.....the contract had to be renegotiated following TVAC going bust and due to the euro/pound exchange rate it has increased the price by more than 25%

Added by Barrie Green on 13 June 2009.
Jake, dont build your hopes up theres a world of difference/time between being delivered and going/remaining operational !

Added by Rick Loudon on 13 June 2009.
This appliance has been replaced by a newer 59plate ARP

Added by Steve Bonner on 07 March 2010.
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