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Brandweer Hoornaar/Noordeloos 18-821 (2)
Fire Engine Photos
No: 21240   Contributor: Corné Verhoef   Year: 2009   Manufacturer: MAN   Country: The Netherlands
Brandweer Hoornaar/Noordeloos 18-821 (2)

This is the watertender from the Fire brigade Hoornaar-Noordeloos, Zuid Holland-Zuid, The Netherlands.
This MAN TGM 15.240 BL(F) has a bodywork from HDS-Godiva. It came into service in late august 2009. It's pump has a capacity of 3250 l/m low pressure and 250 l/m high pressure. The tank contains 1500 litres of water.
Picture was taken in Hoornaar on 17 november 2009 at the official revealing of this watertender.
Picture added on 31 December 2009 at 07:15
add commentComments:
Can you explain what appears to be the top of the locker body rising up in the air is?


Added by David L on 31 December 2009.
Hi David, it's no longer allowed to climb a roof of a engine. So in the Netherlands the appliances have a hydraulic system to get the ladders and larger hoses pulled down this way. The fire fighters can get safely, on ground level, the stuff of the roof :-)

Added by Marcel on 31 December 2009.
Thanks Marcel. I wonder why they didn't put the ladders hose on separate racks that would come down of either side of the truck?

Added by David L on 01 January 2010.
Great when theres an overhead obstruction or when it fails, please bring back some common sense to firefighting!

Added by John Stott on 01 January 2010.
yep John much to go wrong methinks!!!!
Keep it simple

Added by Barrie Green on 01 January 2010.
Hi guys, you can think what you want. In our fire region most of the vehicles drive around with this system, I can assure you it works. And
the overhead obstruction, just watch where you park the fire engine......
John, Barrie, when I read your comments on all the new (modern)vehicles that come across our website I instantly think of the two old guys on the Muppet show. In the old days everything was better.
So you want to drive around in 2010 in an old Bedford without power steering, without automatic gear change, without breaking assistance?
Surely not all of the high-tech directly works, but if you don't try it you'll stick to the old stuff. Maybe that is something very British, I think it seems very conservative just for the sake of it. Without trial and error you won't make real progress. And if you don't try what others feel works, well....

However, I wish all the visitors to our website a happy new year !!

Added by Marcel on 01 January 2010.
Never did care for Bedfords Marcel.....I was driving a brand new MAN a couple of weeks was like driving a luxery car......I am not averse to change...never have been.... Marcel I am thinking you are mistaking my comments for others....the only new vehicles I am not happy about are the CARPs their track record speaks for themselves.
Happy New Year to you and yours.

Added by Barrie Green on 01 January 2010.
Marcel, yes I am happy with older machines and not ashamed to admit it. I have driven and operated countless airport and domestic machines for a thirty five year period, my last six years on a modern Sabre, yes older is less complicated, generally more reliable and easier to fix. Technology is more complex nowadays but tends to reflect what your generation seem to desire in all aspects of life, more gadgetry, which keeps industry happy and the tax payer poorer.
Where an appliance is parked should depend on the circumstances, not crew convenience for slipping a ladder, but perhaps that's a European way of firefighting?
Happy new year to you too, this is a good site and some good opinions are passed, discussion is healthy, but don't knock the old British views of firefighting, we invented most of it and wrote the rule book.
( On a cultural note, to compare someone to a Muppet is regarded as an insult in my country )

Added by John Stott on 02 January 2010.
To true John Stott, sadly my comments tend never to get published on here so i hardly bother now .

Anyway to call a fellow member of this site is an insult to John a friend of mine so i'm hoping Marcel says sorry, we have to when we say the wrong thing, so will Marcel the muppet lead from the front and follow suit?

Happy new year John Stott, but doubt you will see this because it's not pc, old fashioned or not permitted by Marcel the muppet .

Added by John Johnstone on 02 January 2010.
I don't think Marcel S. called someone a Muppet. He made a reference to two specific characters on that particular show who represent a particular view on life in general, something completely different! And none of those are Kermit, Miss Piggy or Fonzy for that matter.
But you'd have known that if you were familiar with the show.

With regard to the 'European' way of fire-fighting, don't the Americans have H&S restrictions too?

Again, I don't think Marcel S. is knocking the old British views on fire-fighting. He was commenting on the resilience towards more modern views and practices that are seen as 'normal' in many other places around the world.

Why not ask for more information from the folk who use different equipment or use it in different ways before stipulating that is all not 'common sense'. (Does that comment equate to calling it stupid?)
And as you seem to feel that we need to be polite to each other (and I agree, insist on it... though you picked up the Muppet reference in the wrong way). Why not be inquisitive and let other folks have their say and view on things without telling them off all the time? Give other folk breathing space too.

Now something a little more sensitive: I've just published John Johnstone's comment above too in which he feels it is right to knowingly call one of the editors names. And he wonders why his comments are frequently refused.

Marcel S is trying to keep the site accessible to everyone (and of every age) and wants to stimulate other people's contributions, experiences and views. We would love to see more photos from all over the world, but to be honest if I lived in a country that used different working practices and equipment I would think twice before I posted photos on this site. On top of that, if there is no consideration with regard to 'cultural differences' and language barriers....

Added by Marcel Gommers on 02 January 2010.
Lets not get this issue out of hand please....its a great site...probably the best of all the fire appliance forums and I go on quite a few) yes we all have our personal favourites and being someone who is actively involved in the preservation of fire engines it is obvious where my interest lay......however....I still work full time for a fire and rescue service albeit in a no-operational role (for the next 12 months and 8 days !!!) so am full appraised of present day thinking and procedure, yes the fire service is very different from the one I joined in 1967, in that time automatic gearboxes were being introduced in our brigade....I remember our Transport Officer commenting about making a simple job complicated.....I often drive our 1938 Leyland and 1948 Dennis F1 with a manual gearbox and non-power steering.......I wouldn't like to drive them today on the bell to incidents with present day traffic conditions.
Just stating my case...I have no wish to fall out with anyone...especially on here.

Added by Barrie Green on 02 January 2010.
H&S? Health and Safety? When I was a volunteer 30 years ago, it was not uncommon to go on a shout, standing on the running board of the appliance, or standing behind the hose bed. Sadly, that was prohibited after a firefighter fell off a Pirsch fire appliance during a parade, ending that company's existence as well. With the wind in my face, going down the road, that was fun. Dangerous, but fun.

I can understand where John S. is coming from preferring older appliances. While I have not driven an appliance in years, I used to drive garbage trucks. The company I was with for 18 years, went from fairly simple, manually operated trucks, to computerized wonders that would break down catastrophically after 2-3 years. The funny thing is, my company wouldn't pay or train our mechanics how to fix them properly, leaving many of the drivers and mechanics to "jury-rig" the trucks. Often the safety systems were over-ridden,
resulting in further damage to the trucks and sometimes the drivers. Eventually, we went to the manually operated truck, with automatic transmissions, they were easier to maintain and repair.

When I visit the local stations in my area, I often hear the same thing from the drivers. The wonder appliances work well the first few years, and then slowly go into disrepair. It depends on the department. The biggest problems always seem to be electrical, after that the computers.

So, I can understand where John S. and John J. are coming from. The hydraulic roof on the Dutch appliance looks cool, but that will only last as long as it is maintained.

If I haven't said it in an earlier post, Happy New Year everyone. Nice to read your opinions.

Added by David L. on 02 January 2010.
One more comment. In some areas that I live in, this type of system wouldn't be practical. Too many low hanging wires. Some of them power lines.
While positioning the truck would allow it, you can't always count on that. Incidents vary, and I have seen times where the local appliances haven't been able to access their ladders, because where the appliances had to park did not allow to lower the hydraulic ladder racks. Not all US appliance are set up like this. Orange County Florida has their ladder mounted in an internal locker, between the water tank and the right side lockers. The ladders are removed from the rear. I like that better than a hydraulic rack.

Added by David L. on 02 January 2010.
Hi David,

thank you for your comments. I won't go into the details of H&S (though your reference to a fun and dangerous situation might be spot on) but I like you sharing your views on other solutions to circumvent having to climb the roof. Good to hear that you feel that this different working practice works in your area.

Added by Marcel Gommers on 02 January 2010.
I have to say that I feel saddened by some the latest comments made lately. There are many users of this site who have not used appliances operationally and just visit the site to see all the different fire appliances that are in use around the world. So what if an appliance has a feature that someone does not like. To me its nice to see something that I would not normally see and without this and other web sites these appliances would never be seen by anyone. This is a site to allow others to share a common interest. Lets try and leave it at that!
Just a final point that without modern technology and computers none of these pictures would be here!!!!!
Wishing every one a happy and safe 2010

Added by Graham on 02 January 2010.
Mr Gommers, just one thing to add, Mr Sloover edited this site for you several months ago and made the same mistake ie criticism of views based on experience. If he wishes to engage in educated debate about fire fighting I presume he has the training and experience to do this? As to his modus operandi he appears to be nothing but a "wind up merchant" who would appear to be an ageist. Thats his problem.
As for censoring posts, apart from Mr Johnsons experience and quite a few others, whats the point? Censor bad language sure, children use this site and I am all for responsability there. Many of us who use this site derive great enjoyment out of it, but, as stated by many people before, they have strong opinions based on experience. The site can work for people of all levels, from firefighters to enthusiasts but accept that people have strong views and be willing to publish them where technical issues are being discussed.
John, I dont expect an apology but thanks for your support, its unfortunate that Marcel Sloover seems to get some kind of pleasure from it, but as I said, thats his problem.

Added by John Stott on 03 January 2010.
Hi John S.

I think you are mistaking Marcel S for me. I was the person who contributed to a similar discussion a few months ago when your regular editor, Marcel S was on hols. I was fed up, and still am, with the negative comments that are posted when someone simply posts a photo.

I have taken over this discussion from Marcel S. (as you will have noticed). This to avoid more 'language and cultural difficulties', but also as I am ultimately responsible for this site (and a few others) from an editorial point of view. My comments and involvement are therefore not relevant to the 'field' of fire fighting, but to the management and development of web sites. Marcel S. however has got a long-standing involvement, and though he is not driving an engine he has been following the 'field' for about 25 years now.

However, as you might now have noticed Marcel S. has come to a similar view. And he thought it fair to comment on it.
His view is not ageism or any other form of discrimination, though he does disagree that in the past 'everything was better'. He is tired of this same criticism to photos every time again. And as a result site visitors and contributors being put off in participating.
Whatever his experience is besides the point, he is making a case for how he feels this site should be 'used', grown, developed, shared and so on.
Contributors' experience and photos can be shared and formed in a positive and inquisitive fashion. Without the result of people feeling attacked in sharing their hobby (even though it might not be their profession).
The site can be for everyone as long as everyone gives breathing space to everyone. And at this moment (and for quite some time) this space is not given.

So after two elaborate attempts we, the editors, feel we've explained ourselves enough. We feel responsible for the site and the visitors / contributors from the wider community. Not just the professionals working in the field, not just towards those who have strong views, but also to folk who want to share their hobby, whether they are 'knowledgeable' or not. You, and 'quite a few others', do not agree or do not wish to see the problem.

We feel we've asked often enough now to change your approach and tack when commenting to allow for the space for others.
We will now behave as 'editors' as we see fit without any further explanation.


Added by Marcel Gommers on 03 January 2010.
Mr Gommers, Thankyou for your reply, I cant be bothered to enter into a pedantic argument about whether or not my comments are negative, apart from to add, I have received several e mails from others stating the opposite. These folk come from all over the world, so I am not just a grumpy Brit. Fair enough, you want to run a site a particular way, do it, thats your prerogative.
As for asking me to "change" my approach, well you havnt mentioned it before and you could have contacted me off site, which you havnt.
However, its your site so feel free to run it as you please, but dont make public comments which are not true, evidence exists to the contrary.

Added by John Stott on 03 January 2010.
How quickly the season of 'good will to all' seems to have disappeared.

What constantly draws me back to this fantastic site on an almost daily basis are the brilliant photos and the interesting comments. I love to see new appliances and innovations. But I also love to read about the same innovations being rubbished OR praised by our most ardent of contributors.

And I love to view scratchy snaps of a bygone age and read about those good old days just as much as I like to see canadian Pat and other across-the-pond-dwellers curious about our 'hairdryers'.

The point is: we've all got an opinion and we are never all going to agree. Human beings are just as fascinating as red trucks. The diversity of fire-fighting apparatus, and the multitude of different techniques and procedures is ALL fascinating, and the ability to view it from every corner of the world, while sitting in my pokey spare bedroom is an integral part of this website's brilliance.

So yes, if someone says 'You are a muppet', then yes, that is mildly offensive (though it is always said with affection where I come from.) But nobody said that. But to be compared to Waldorf and Stadtler (however you spell it!) is quite funny. It is an observation and not an insult. When we feel as strongly as we do, we can come over as grumpy old men. I know I have in the past, but believe me, I'm far from being grumpy. I SAID I'M NOT GRUMPY!!!

But that's the trouble with flat text: you cannot read the sentiment in which it is typed, unless you capitalize it and add a few exclamation marks.

So lighten up everyone. And remember this site is largely a democracy. Happy new year to one and all. And let's keep the debating good natured! Or we're all going to come across as muppets . . .

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 03 January 2010.
Surely this isn't the place to discuss the merits of The Muppets. I thought that it was a fire engine photo site. Discuss! No, please don't, as its all getting rather childish and long winded.

Added by Alan Godfree on 03 January 2010.
New appliances throughout history have had benefits,or we would still be riding horse drawn steamers! I agree with the comments about electric/hydraulic roof gantries,North Wales learnt the hard way amongst others. Everyone is entitled to opinions (wher would we be without them!).This site is much better than 12 months ago.lets enjoy it, editors, contributors, enthusiasts, firefighters(serving and ex) and viewers Without all these groups there would be no site. We ALL make it unique,belated Happy New Year.

Added by Gary Simpson on 03 January 2010.
I feel that it is good to share photos and information from all over the world in relation to the world of fire and rescue. Yes sometimes modern technology does not work as planned and yes it is good to see what other brigades in other countries use. yes it may seems a bit daft but we have to remember that it may actually work very well in that particular country but not be such a good idea for other countries.

Added by Stevie Murray on 03 January 2010.
If you look at how fire trucks have evolved since WWII, they are increasingly looking alike and functioning the same. Of course we already borrow ideas which work well from other countries, as do other industries and public services. Old fire engines are fun to look at and to restore, and some of them are wonderful craftsmanship. But these trucks have a very serious job to do, and innovation will not stop. The powered ladder rack is a great idea, and works well. It is not only safer but faster, which should be a point in its favor. Failure is very rare, because the system has redundant wiring, switching and motors. They are increasingly being used in Europe and North America, and hopefully the UK services will see the benefits eventually.

Added by Rob Johnson on 11 February 2011.
Gentlemen! After reading all comments, I have 1 questen to somebody in the U.K. !! How are they taking down the groundladders from the Carps ??

Anders F. Sweden.

Added by Anders Fallström on 24 August 2014.
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